http://www.1101.com/iwata/

Mr.Iwata, president of Nintendo came to our office.
We had a nice talk over supper.


It was about six months ago, when it was still cold outside.  Mr.Iwata, president of Nintendo came to our office.  Mr.Iwata and Shigesato Itoi are old friends.  He helped us start up "Hobonichi".  Sometimes, when he visits Tokyo on his business travel from Kyoto, Mr. Iwata drops by our office after work..

One day, Itoi got a call from Mr.Iwata that he'll stop by.  Itoi suggested everyone to eat together, so we ordered delivery and had a nice supper.

What he talked about during that small meal was astonishingly interesting, we decided to put it together as an article.  (Luckily we have a culture of recording interesting conversations.)


Please enjoy the 11 articles from that evening.


01
The Definition of Idea

Itoi: Remember talking about the definition of "idea" before?

Iwata: The words of Mr.(Shigeru) Miyamoto, right?

Itoi: He said that ideas are "something which solves multiple issues at once". This notion seemed eye-opening to my staffs. Can you explain us a bit more about the intention of his words, and your analysis of it?

Iwata: Those words came out when we were designing a video game software. I think Mr.Miyamoto said it as an example of a method for designing video games. I actually perceive this as a very versatile concept, which can be applied to many aspects of life.

Itoi: Uh-huh.

Iwata: There's always the dilemma of "damned if you do, damned if you don't" when creating something. There are options that improve the product, and there are also options that work the other way. The thing is that you barely have cases in which there exists only a single problem. You usually have problems occurring everywhere, lots of them.

Itoi: Yes, yes.

Iwata: I'm not talking solely about designing a product. The same happens in organizations, or in personal relationships. Presenting a single antidote for a single problem doesn't get you anywhere. It always causes side effects. It sometimes even raises trouble to issues which were fine until then. People come up with many suggestions, but usually it only gives a solution to a single problem, and only that. A project doesn't advance much with a solution like that.

Itoi: I know what you mean.

Iwata: Often times, the game not being entertaining enough are the problems you face when designing video games. The more ideas put in, the more fun it brings forth, and people enjoy the game more. However, the amount of time and human resources that can be put into creation is always limited. It's not realistic to simply propose "more" of something when you have limitations. Sometimes, one single idea solves one problem, then another, and even issues that were thought to be totally unrelated.

Itoi: That does happen sometimes. (to the staffs) Interesting, isn't it?

All: (laugh)

Iwata: Mr.Miyamoto is constantly trying to find that kind of "idea". I mean, constantly. Persistently. One day he called me up suddenly, it was when I used to live in Yamanashi. (Mr.Iwata had been president of HAL Laboratory, Inc., which is located in Yamanashi Prefecture) Do you know what the first thing he said was?  "I got it!"  (laughing) I had no idea what he was talking about.

Itoi: (laugh)

Iwata: What he "got" was an idea for a game we were designing together. This idea was something that solved multiple issues, all at once.

Itoi: That's what he called an "idea".

Iwata: Exactly. One single inspiration that makes so many things work. That's what you call a "great idea", and finding that moves things forward, moves it towards the goal. Mr. Miyamoto thinks that it's the game director's task to find those "ideas".

Itoi: He didn't actually say this, right? You've picked this up working with him for a long time, observing his ways.

Iwata: Yes. I've seen him "get it" many times. Through those instances, I've come to learn his emphasis on that method, and how he guides projects to goals using that method.

Itoi: That's really interesting. (laugh)

Iwata: This really isn't limited to game design. The world is full of "damned if you do, damned if you don'ts". You call it "trade-off". Everyone is confronted with trade-offs. The more budget, the better. The more human resource, the better. The more time, the better. That's obvious. However, doing the obvious means doing the same thing with everyone else. That doesn't nurture competitiveness.

Itoi: It becomes a matter of who does it more.

Iwata: But when you find a solution by combining issues, the more unique it is, the more value it brings. When Mr.Miyamoto said "that's what you call an idea", it came to me. It's such a concept that applies to various aspects of life, so I really wanted to incorporate it into my way of thinking. I remember talking about this the other time we met.

Itoi: If you're looking for a solution that solves only a single issue, and not multiple issues, it's easy.

Iwata: It really is.

Itoi: (Pointing at Sato sitting next to him, and Nagata sitting across him)  See, if Sato's life is in danger, it's easy to find a way to save him at the cost of Nagata's life. The more leeway an enterprise or an organization has, the more they tend to choose such solutions. They solve issues one by one. First they save Sato, then they realize Nagata's in danger, so they choose to save Nagata, and on and on.

Iwata: By putting in an endless amount of time and energy.

Itoi: Exactly.

Iwata: Everyone can solve problems one by one. "If there's too much of something, just make it less", or the other way around. That's just responding to each issue. For example, if a customer complained at a restaurant that a dish is "too much", what is he/she really saying? Maybe the real problem may be how the dish tastes, and not the amount.

All: Ah....

Iwata: If the chef only sees the amount of his dish as the problem, changing the amount doesn't solve anything. He has to be able to find the real issue and improve the taste to truly solve this problem.

Itoi: That's true.

Iwata: When you dig deep down until you hit the root of the problem, you sometimes find that what seems to be isolated matters are actually connected. A single change can have impact on matters that were thought having no relation. Different problems can be solved at once. When a single idea solves various matters, those are the times when Mr.Miyamoto "get it", and calls you up all of a sudden. You have a much clearer vision when you "get it".


02
View Things over Someone Else's Shoulder

Itoi: Mr. Miyamoto said that an idea is "something which solves multiple issues", and you mentioned that it opened your eyes to a new way of thinking. However, as a programmer, I'm sure you have solved problems in the same way?

Iwata: Actually, yes. Fixing a bug in a program often solves many problems, or visa versa.

Itoi: Does everyone who has studied in the science field experience such way of utilizing "single ideas"?

Iwata: There are people who solve problems via symptomatic treatments, of course. Such as "Let's turn down the air conditioner since it's hot", or "I'll drink some water because I'm thirsty". People like this may actually be the majority.

Itoi: I see.

Iwata: I don't think it's a matter of coming from the science field. I think it's just the type of person you are. There are those who are satisfied knowing that thirst is the reason for wanting something to drink, and there are those who want to unfold the cause of their thirst.

Itoi: I wonder where that difference comes from. Where those two types branch.

Iwata: I have a nature of pursuing the reason of things.

Itoi: I know you do. (laugh)

Iwata: (laughing) Yes, as you know very well. During my initial years as a video game designer, when the game I created didn't sell as expected, I would look for the reason why. Technologically, my game wasn't inferior to others, but it didn't sell as much.

Itoi: Uh-huh. (laugh)

Iwata: But the games Mr.Miyamoto designed sold like crazy. I mean, its sales were multiplied by dozens compared to that of the game I designed.

Itoi: But the quality of the technology of the game wasn't much different, right?

Iwata: Well, at least that was what I thought. But the facts were clear. His game just sold much more.

Itoi: I'm sure there are many people who draw the conclusion that their games are just as good as Mr.Miyamoto's.

Iwata: But I wanted my games to become popular, just like his.

Itoi: I like how you think. (laugh)

Iwata: My piece of work wasn't popular as his. Everyone seemed to be playing his game. That's frustrating. Frustration made me observe closely. What was the difference between him and me?  This wasn't an easy question to answer.

Itoi: It must have been difficult.

Iwata: After starting to work with Mr.Miyamoto for a while, I started to see. I was only looking from the "designer's point of view", but he was different. His aim does have a higher percentage of becoming a hit, but he does make mistakes. After all he's not God, you know. The difference lies in how he corrects his mistakes. He brings an employee who has nothing to do with the game he's designing, and hands him/her the controller and says, "Go ahead, try it." This was before he was acknowledged as a renowned video game designer, when he still was assistant manager or manager.

Itoi: (laughing) When he was "The world-class assistant manager".

Iwata: (laughing) Yes, he was "The world-class assistant manager" for quite a long time.

Itoi: (laughing) Yes, quite long.

Iwata: So he hands him/her the controller and tells him/her to go at it, and all he does is watch him/her from behind. I used to call it "Mr. Miyamoto's View over Someone Else's Shoulder". I didn't realize how important it was until I started to work with him. Only then it occurred to me that this was it.  We're not able to go to customers explaining the details of the game's intention, or how they should enjoy it.

Itoi: Of course not.

Iwata: The product is all you've got. But a product is incomplete when it comes to explaining something in detail. Every detail of the design of the game is not always understood by the players.

Itoi: Mr.Miyamoto is trying to find that gap through his "View over Someone Else's Shoulder".

Iwata: Exactly. He watches them play and checks in detail how they respond, playing it without any previous knowledge. He finds out what they don't understand, what they let past, which triggers they miss. There are tons you can find from the view from behind.  However experienced he may be, he never drops the notion that "if the players don't understand it, there's fault in the design I made".

Itoi: How interesting.

Iwata: It's easy to say it's the "customer's point of view" that counts, but it's the fact that he drew a method of how to find it very early. On the other hand, I was interested whether my program was cool or not, but not really aware of the players' response.

Itoi: So at the time, you thought you were cool.

Iwata: Actually, yes. (laugh) I, the novice game designer, thought I was cool.

Itoi: "The program works, and it looks cool too", right?

Iwata: (laughing) Must have been like that. Mr.Miyamoto's way came upon me as a total shock. I remember going back to my office and writing a report on it, how his method works, and it being the reason we can't win.

Itoi: Like Kaishu Katsu on Kanrin-maru, seeing America for the fist time.

Iwata: Ha ha ha. In those days, there were few people around me who understood this concept. A lot of times I ended up thinking all by myself.

Itoi: Those pursuit for the reason why must have made you who you are today.

Iwata: I think so.


03
Something Special about Mr.Miyamoto

Itoi: Mr.Miyamoto has been unique to think that "if the players don't understand it, their's fault in the design I made". Were there many designers who thought that way?

Iwata: No, I think he was very unique. Often, people only look from the designer's point of view.

Itoi: Must be so.

Iwata: Many designers put their personal perspective into their design as if it represents everyone's opinion. In reality, based on the fact on how the player reacts, you should draw a hypothesis, and then you should figure out how to solve the problem from the root. But, people often mix the facts and presumptions, and push that mixed opinion through without solving the problem based on the fact.

Itoi: That just leads to throwing subjective opinions at each other in the development meetings, doesn't it?

Iwata: Yes, although that's not totally useless.  Creation always has an aspect of expressing one's ego. Mr.Miyamoto's no different. He does have that side in him. As long as you're creating something, you can't avoid being an egoist. What's special about Mr.Miyamoto is that he is unthinkably egocentric in one way, but he never loses an objective point of view. He's always alert about people's initial response to his creation. If he finds they don't get it, he simply drops it and looks for an alternative.

Itoi: He must be talented in shifting his viewpoint.

Iwata: Exactly. He can examine something very closely, and the next second he can switch to a macroscopic point of view, and make a fresh start from there.

Itoi: You think he's using a magnifying lens, but he may already be switching to a view from 10,000 meters high.

Iwata: He can do that instantly. It's often the case that when you examine something closely, you keep on getting closer to the subject but not alter your viewpoint.

Itoi: True.

Iwata: I think the "idea which solves multiple issues at once" can't be found when you're looking at something real close. You need to be able to switch your point of view. That's not an easy thing to do. Mr.Miyamoto can do it easily. He's the type of person that can come up with a solution that can truly save someone when he/she's in danger, and not rescuing him/her at the cost of another.

Itoi: I can see why you call yourself "the researcher of Miyamoto studies". (laugh)

Iwata: (laughing) Oh, yes, I'm the world's number one researcher of Miyamoto studies.

Itoi: You've been calling yourself that for quite a long time. (laugh)

Iwata: He must be sneezing now.

Itoi: Didn't Mr.Miyamoto major in industrial design in college? That's something significant that makes him who he is now, isn't it?

Iwata: I think so. I think it's a huge factor that he used to study ID(Industrial Design). It's not about how artistic it is, it's all about how the product meets its objective.

Itoi: He is really making use of what he studied.

Iwata: Knowing Mr.Miyamoto as he is today, it seems to me that it sort of was inevitable that he studied ID, and not by coincidence.

Itoi: The logics he acquired through studying ID must make up a significant part of him, how he picks out the correct answers through people's responses.

Iwata: Definitely. The majority of people think he's the person of art, full of inspiration, with a natural talent coming up with ideas one after another, as if he was guided by God.

Itoi: But that's not how it is, right?

Iwata: Not at all. He's extremely logical, but that's not all. He creates a mixture of left-prefrontal-oriented elaborate logic, and dramatic ideas that people are blown away by. To be honest, I have to say I envy this.

Itoi: You always talk like you don't have that kind of mixture, but I think every programmer has that within himself.

Iwata: Well, I don't say I lack it, but surely I wouldn't want to compete with right-prefontal-oriented people like you or Mr.Miyamoto on your grounds.

All: (laugh)

Itoi: Really? (laugh)

Iwata: I know I only have a slim chance of winning. (laugh) I'd rather compete in my own field, than someone else's.

Itoi: That's another thing you've been saying for a long time.


04
On Management: "Enhance your Strength"

Itoi: Do you remember the time I asked you the definition of management? It was around when I just started up Hobonichi, when you were president of HAL Laboratory.

Iwata: Of course.

Itoi: I would never have guessed you'd become president of Nintendo at that time.

Iwata: Neither had I.

All: (laugh)

Itoi: I remember the reason why I asked you that question. Having putting back together HAL Laboratory, I wanted to hear your opinion, thinking of the difficulties you went through, and partly because I didn't want to go through the same situation.

Iwata: I remember answering "You have to know your strength and your weakness. You need to lead your organization where you can enhance your strength, not where your weakness becomes exposed."

Itoi: You then sounded as if there could possibly be no other answers at all.

Iwata: You just have to stick to that until the end. I also remember talking about priorities.

Itoi: Yes.

Iwata: You have to set your priorities being aware of what you're good at. There are always so many things that you ought to do, but what you "can" do is limited. If you try to do everything you ought to do, you end up falling over. That's what I told you then as my own definition of management when I was wet behind the ears, but I still believe in this idea today.

Itoi: Yes, I still see it in you.

Iwata: It's a theory that works.

Itoi: Those are probably the two things you taught me directly. I always kept them in mind when I discussed management with other people. I've been going over it again recently. I know vaguely our strength and weakness, but not so clearly.  Actually, our employees are discussing our strength through e-mail right now. We've got like 150 opinions, but it's still not completely clear to us. I feel we're missing something.

Iwata: I see.

Itoi: I think most of it has been said, but I feel we're still missing a whole lot. One of the strengths of HAL Laboratory was that it had a fantastic view, right?

Iwata: "HAL Laboratory, Inc., the software vendor where you can view Mt.Fuji"

Itoi: Ha ha ha. That's a phrase I wrote on a sign in "MOTHER 2" (EarthBound).

Iwata: (laugh)

Itoi: HAL Laboratory was definitely specialized in programming.

Iwata: At the time, yes.

Itoi: It was partly because you were there. HAL Laboratory was definitely good at programming, not art. A company like ours, on the other hand, has difficulties when it comes to defining our strengths.

Iwata: I can assume that.

Itoi: We can come up with many abstract concepts, but it becomes unclear when you try to break it down into concrete concepts. To be extreme, you call something your strength when you want to nurture it even at the expense of investment. We haven't completely found that yet. I think it's an important task for us to find it, thus we've been searching for a long time. It would be nice if you can share some hints on how to search such strength, including how it was at HAL Laboratory.

Iwata: Let's see...  First, it is ourselves that takes action. Then, the customers or our business acquaintances receive it and respond to it. This is the basic set of action. HAL Laboratory used to receive orders from Nintendo. In a way, the person in charge at Nintendo was our customer. Sometimes they were satisfied with our output, but sometimes not. The interesting thing is that this wasn't related to the amount of effort we put in. With the same amount of effort, sometimes we got 5 times the satisfaction than other times.

Itoi: Interesting.

Iwata: I found out a pattern, observing this. To put it in short, when you are doing your job, there are times when you feel extremely exhausted and times when you feel it not so hard. Businesses are always accompanied by hardships and difficulties, needless to say. When you have completed a challenging job, if the customer's satisfaction level is not more than the level of the hard works you've been through, you feel even more exhausted. On the other hand, when the customer evaluates us highly, higher than what our hardship deserves in our analysis, employees become more encouraged and motivated to grow further. However, in bad cycles, the employees wear out, and the necessity of having to sit down and listen to their thoughts starts popping up. In summary, if they can feel that they were rewarded more than they deserve in the form of the customer's appraisal, it's the good cycle in which employees can voluntarily grow without the need of the management to intervene. That is something they are good at. If things cannot work out that way, these are not the things they are good at. I think that is how I have been distinguishing the two.

Itoi: Ah, I get it.

Iwata: It's the same at Nintendo too.

Itoi: I think that's something I'm already doing.

Iwata: Yes, I think so.

Itoi: I don't want my people to go through meaningless agony.

Iwata: If it's too painful, just drop it. It's not what you're good at.

Itoi: Drop the painful stuff, quit the things you don't find interesting.

Iwata: You can say that again.


05
People Try to Show Superiority.

Itoi: There exists an odd value that "the more pain you put in, the better", don't you think? I think you should just do what you're good at, and drop the opposite.

Iwata: I know what you mean. People working overtime are somewhat thought to be working harder than those who can finish work on time, right? People complain about their colleagues leaving work early, but that's just wrong. People tend to complain comparing their strong points with other person's weakness.

Itoi: It's like saying "Itoi can't even code programs."

Iwata: (laughing) Well, that's a pretty extreme example.

Itoi: Getting back on the subject, I understand your point.

Iwata: This is my personal theory, but all living creatures bear the task of passing down their DNA through reproduction. To reproduce, there's the necessity to show your superiority. The individuals who can do this well are the ones that were able to pass down their DNA.

Itoi: I see, I see.

Iwata: So I think it's natural for us to try to show that we're better than others. That's why we tend to compare our strengths with other people's weakness. This happens in any type of social organizations, such as in companies.  Therefore, it becomes a priority to define an axis, a mutual agreement on evaluation. There is a need to create a fair basis.

Itoi: That' a persuasive theory.

Iwata: I've never felt any contradictions so far.

Itoi: It's like Sanma Akashiya (Japanese comedian) saying "Men like women who can slip us into self-complacency."

Iwata: (laughing) I don't know about that, but I guess yes, in a way.

Itoi: Existence that gives them advantage among others.

Iwata: There are times when you just have to grit your teeth and do it. Society will fall apart if everyone just quits doing what they don't want to do.

Itoi: It will, yes.

Iwata: Even when everyone can agree to make our company "the group of people who will devote our efforts to do things we are good at," we still have to identify and assign the minimum amount of works that employees have to do even when they know they are not good at. Otherwise, we cannot work together. It is the management's job to make efforts to minimize this "minimum amount of necessary works that employees are not good at," I believe. For example, some people just cannot communicate with the others. But things won't work out if there's someone in the company who will never try to communicate his or her thoughts with the colleagues. After all, a company is a group of individuals with different talents. That group of people tries to accomplish something large that an individual can't do. For everyone to move forward, the least amount of communication must always be made by each individual even when he or she is not good at talking with the others.

Itoi: So you try to contain the "minimum amount of labors" and encourage people to grow by doing things they are good at.

Iwata: Yes, I think it's very important. There's also one other thing. There are people with talent that they themselves haven't realized. They may even think they're not good at it. For example, nobody thinks that they're talented in management from the start.

Itoi: Come to think of it, that's true. Nobody in grade school understands the notion of management completely.

Iwata: No. No one chooses management from the start.

Itoi: Probably not.

Iwata: I didn't think I had talent in management at first. It's easy to keep on thinking you're not made for it. However, in my case, there was nobody else up for it. It was like destiny that the position came to me.

Itoi: That happened twice in your life, becoming president.

Iwata: Of course it was my decision in the end to become president. But it wasn't my initial aim. I've given the same kind of opportunity to other people. Although they might consider themselves as "not the type", I assign tasks when I see their potential. They seem to find it tough in the beginning, but by advising them with new ways of thinking or new views to look at matters, they discover themselves getting interested in it as a result.

Itoi: Is this something that occurred recently?

Iwata: Yes. There were people who thought they weren't the "manager type". They used to declare that they loved to make games so much so that they would like to make it their sole career. But they have changed. I've heard them say how fascinating it was to teach others and watch them grow. It's a potential they already had. It's just that they didn't realize it. When you help others find that potential, you see people bloom in such a way you never expected.


06
Finding your Reward

Itoi: What's something you keep in mind when you're trying to find a new potential in someone?

Iwata: There are those things that you can continue doing, and those that you end up quitting. For example, I think everyone has tried to become fluent in English, at least once in their life.

Itoi: Definitely. (laugh)

Iwata: But often times, you end up quitting.

Itoi: It's like, "Heck with English!"

Iwata: I think there's an important point in this. It's something I've found out when designing video games. There are two types of games, those that you toss instantly, and those that you continue playing. It's not a matter of how fine the game is made, or the essential excitement of the game. In my opinion, this has something in common with whether or not you can continue a variety of other habits.

Itoi: I'd love to hear more about this.

Iwata: If the reward that you receive is worth more than the effort and energy you put in, people don't quit. If it's the other way around, people feel discouraged. This applies to those games you continue playing, or being able to keep on studying English. People put in energy such as time, labor, or money. The feedback you receive is your reward.

Itoi: I see.

Iwata: This is why you become good at what you like. Artists draw paintings, and people compliment it. Through that cycle, he/she progresses. As for me, knowing more about computers makes it more interesting. For you, you find what's interesting, and you get involved with it. When you feel accepted, you feel a kind of pleasant stimulation, and you get better at it. Being able to establish this cycle is in fact probably his or her talent. I believe that talent is thus the ability to find your reward.

Itoi: So being talented is about "feeling the excitement of accomplishment", and not "just accomplishing".

Iwata: I think so. Finding your reward with your inner "circuit that responds to rewards".

Itoi: I see.

Iwata: Some people are so close to finding that reward, but their circuit may not be active. Their circuit can turn on with some advice, or just by simply telling them to "keep on trying three more times." A positive cycle begins when your circuit is turned on, when you feel that the reward you receive is worth more than the energy put in.

Itoi: Just like you said, "Your strength lies in those areas where you are highly evaluated, even if you don't think you've put in extreme effort."

Iwata: Being able to find that reward is a gift itself. Furthermore, I think those people who can continue doing what people don't like, or what may be too tiresome for others, are those people you call a genius. This is something I found through my relationship with you and with Mr.Miyamoto.

Itoi: Hmmm.

Iwata: It's not easy to do something for a long time. First of all, its' tiring, plus you never know if you'll receive something in return. However, for some people, there's no pain in doing it. Those are the people who can win. You're lucky if you have found it. You've found your talent.

Itoi: I've also been thinking about rewards and pleasure. There are two types of pleasure, there's the normal pleasure, and there are those that feel stimulus.

Iwata: Ah!

Itoi: There's that pleasure that's stimulus, just like when you're receiving Shiatsu massage, that "Ouch, it hurts but it feels good" type of pleasure. When you can keep on working in that kind of area, you can become a genius. Rewards don't only come in forms of sweets or good food or money.

Iwata: (laughing) I know what you mean.

Itoi: It's sort of masochistic. It's good, it hurts, but it's good, and only I know the pleasure of this.

Iwata: Rewards aren't just sweets or snacks.

Itoi: Enterprises give money or positions or vacations as a clear form of reward. Those rewards are limitless, and you have to keep giving more of it. There's no drama to it. I'd rather see more drama. Drama lies even within our senses. Sometimes the sour, salty, hot flavor tastes good.

Iwata: Like, "this tanginess is delicious."

Itoi: Exactly. There's those hidden flavors that stimulates us. When you're the only one that feels that way, you're in a good spot.

Iwata: The things you think you're good at, your reward circuit is definitely active.

Itoi: Yes.

Iwata: When you've found something like that, you expand your capabilities. Your circuit responds to other related stimulation. You find yourself talented in other areas. As for me, I keep finding how management is similar to designing software.

Itoi: I see what you mean.


07
The Programmer's Pattern of Logic

Itoi: To me, it seems that your methodology has been consistent as a programmer, and as president of Nintendo.

Iwata: You think so?

Itoi: When the MOTHER 2 (EarthBound) project was about to fall apart, you came in to help, and this is what you said to us. "It will take 2 years to fix this keeping what you have built up. If we start from scratch, it will take only a year. What do you say?"

Iwata: Yes, I remember. (laugh)

Itoi: We decided to start from scratch. You knew this was the best choice from the beginning though, didn't you?

Iwata: If I were to choose the best way at that time, yes, I would've started from scratch. But I wasn't in the project from the start, so I would've respected whatever decision you made. My task was to pull the project back together. Anyway, I think it was possible to do either way.

Itoi: You thought it was best to start from scratch, and still you would've have gone either way?

Iwata: It was important not to ruin the atmosphere of the project team. You can't show up all of a sudden and destroy everything people have created until then. People aren't persuaded by such ways. The positive atmosphere of the team is crucial in order to succeed. I decided it was best to present the team with suggestions, and have them take the pick.

Itoi: Now I understand. When you joined the team the first thing you did was to make tools. There were huge problems left unsolved, but you didn't touch them. It seemed to us you weren't doing anything productive, but actually you were creating tools to solve those problems.

Iwata: Right.

Itoi: (to the staffs) What he did was really interesting. He didn't try to solve the problems one by one. He made a tool, and said to us "Here's a tool that you all can use", and assigned us which parts to build with that tool. Now that the tool was there, all we had to do was to get down to work.

Iwata: Yes, I remember.

Itoi: Experiencing those times, I see you doing the same as president of Nintendo. You made a new department when Nintendo DS came out, right?

Iwata: Yes. There already was a department that was in charge of Nintendo DS, but I made a new one, and assigned them with an important task. This department later designs games such as "Brain Age" and "DS English Training". I didn't foresee this at the time though.

Itoi: When I heard about this later on, I thought it was the same way you put MOTHER 2 (EarthBound) back on track.

Iwata: Well, not so much of a variation there (laugh), or you can take the positive side and say that there's consistency.

Itoi: Actually, I don't believe that people can have that much of a variation in their logical patterns.

Iwata: Maybe not.

Itoi: I think you established your logical pattern as a programmer, and have been making use of it ever since.

Iwata: Maybe. Programming is pure logic. It won't work if there's an inconsistency in the logic. The errors aren't produced inside the system. They are produced from the outside. If the system doesn't work, it's definitely your fault. The funny thing is that every programmer thinks his logic will work when they finish coding a program. It never does, but at that moment, everyone believes there's no error in the logic they have written, and confidently hits the "Enter" key.

Itoi: (to Sato, the system engineer) Is that true?

Sato: Very true. (laugh)

Iwata: The world of programming is all logic. If it doesn't work, you're the one to blame. I also apply this to communication among people. If my message isn't conveyed as intended, I search for the reason on my side, and not blame the other.

Itoi: Ah.

Iwata: If it doesn't work, you're the reason for it. If there's miscommunication between someone, I don't blame them for not understanding. There are always factors on my side. Having been a programmer enables me to think this way.

Itoi: All in all, logical patterns can't be learned through books.

Iwata: You can't really learn something if it's not related to what you do. Handling troubles in your project is much a higher priority than trying to study something irrelevant to you.

Itoi: Probably because it gives you that stimulus pleasure, too.

Iwata: I like flying down with an umbrella to where people seem lost. Just like how it was with the "MOTHER 2" (EarthBound) project. (laugh)

Itoi: (to the staffs) You know.... I think he really enjoys it.

All: (laugh)


08
The King and the Slave

Itoi: Bringing the subject back to Mr.Miyamoto, his premise when creating something seems to be "Don't think your consumers are willing to understand your points", and I feel this is very close to how I think. I often say that "dis-communication is the premise of communication." The consumers are not your family, they're more like people passing by on the streets. But I want what I create to be understood by everyone, just like Mr.Miyamoto wants his games to be enjoyable from the start.

Iwata: Uh-huh.

Itoi: I think creation starts from a despairing cry from within, "Will no one love me?"

Iwata: That's the same for us. The consumers are not "not that much interested" in our games, they're "completely not interested" in the beginning. We need to bring them to a state where they pick up our product and smile, where they come to love it. That's the battle we're fighting, and we want to win it.

Itoi: "Will no one love me?" may sound low self esteemed, but that's the only place where you can really start.

Iwata: It makes me remember the story you told us before, when you came to HAL Laboratory. The story of "the King and the Slave".

Itoi: The story that it's the King who needs to be educated, right?

Iwata: Yes.

Itoi: (to the staffs) This is a good one.

All: (laugh)

Iwata: Seriously, it's a good story. It's about the relation between the creator and the customer. The king isn't the creator. He's the customer. The king is free to say anything about what is given to him, that it's boring, or that he doesn't understand it, or even decline the offer. He has the privilege of being super selfish. The slave has to think how to satisfy the king, how to make him happy.  Mr.Itoi's point was to understand that the job of the slave is intellectual and interesting.

Itoi: The same can be said about relationships, the one who makes the approach, and the other.

Iwata: The initiative lies in the other.

Itoi: Exactly. The one who takes action can never take the initiative. For example, when you ask someone to perform a task for you, you have to think about whether you'll take it if it was offered to you. When you work for someone, it usually involves hard work. People work hard because you think it's worth it, and that's the only way people will put in their full energy into it. So you always have to think, "will I accept this job if it was offered to me?" You need that point of view. If the creator's not aware of that point of view, he starts to misconceive that he is the king. If the consumers don't act as king, the creator is deprived of the opportunity to improve. When the creators don't improve, the customers will get easily bored of what they get. And that's the end of it. It seems that this malignant cycle seems to be increasing. The consumers get bored very easily.

Iwata: The speed of things getting out of date has become extremely fast.

Itoi: If you just keep on responding to the customer's requests, you're not going to come up with something with quality. What Nintendo has been doing since they came out with DS is to keep bringing something new to the kings, who were tired of games that were a mere extension of traditional and conventional ones. Plus, Nintendo made it so that the kings understood it. It's just amazing, what you did.

Iwata: Thank you.

Itoi: Everyone thinks Wii is such a success, but Nintendo hasn't become overproud of it. Actually, I don't think I ever heard you say "Wii is a success."

Iwata: Not yet.

Itoi: Not yet, I see.

Iwata: It's a good start. It's been a good start, but it's only the beginning.

Itoi: (laughing) Is that so.

Iwata: We want to have the customers continue playing. We want to continue coming up with new proposals to them, and have them keep playing. Only then can we say that we've accomplished our goals.

Itoi: That's a great point of view, very objective too.

Iwata: We've been preparing to make things happen.

Itoi: I'm sure you have new plans coming up.

Iwata: We need to see if our new approaches will grab the customer's hearts, if they will keep on playing our games. The answer's not out yet, but I believe we're getting there.


09
Don't do the Easy

Itoi: With Wii being such a big hit, I'm sure you've been asked many times what new sports will be included in the sequel of Wii Sports.

Iwata: Many times. (laugh)

Itoi: It's probably the traditional way to release a sequel, but I suppose Nintendo isn't planning to do that. Maybe a sequel may be released sometime in the future, but probably not soon, and probably not by simply adding a couple of new sports.

Iwata: We're not going to take such an easy way, not by including seven new sports in the game since Wii Sports has five. We're not closing our doors to the possibility of a sequel, but it's definitely not coming out soon.

Itoi: The contents will be so predictable if it came out soon..

Iwata: Yes, like "let's improve the graphics a bit more".

Itoi: Or, "let's stick the controllers to our feet and play soccer".

Iwata: Or maybe sign contracts with professional athletes and create Mii that looks just like them.

Itoi: Why not? (laugh)

Iwata: If you start making such decisions without thinking, you start doing the easy stuff. You disengage yourself with the pursuit of true entertainment.

Itoi: Nintendo won't do the easy.

Iwata: No.

Itoi: Why is that? It's so common to do the easy. It's not totally incorrect to think of the extension of the product that sold well. Sorry to compare us with a huge company like Nintendo, but I feel the same when I look at my staff. If I tell them that what they started seems the same as something they did before, they agree. Instantly.

Iwata: I can see that.

Itoi: What's the difference between those who can do this, and those who can't?

Iwata: You end up doing the easy if you compare one thing with another, and choose the one that seems to have more gain. That's sort of a short sighted cleverness.

Itoi: Uh-huh.

Iwata: The reason why Nintendo isn't doing the easy is because our goal is clear. Our mission is to surprise people in a good way, and this became very clear as we made Nintendo DS and Wii.  You can't open up a new market of customers if you can't surprise them.

Itoi: Expanding the game population was the initial target you set when you became president of Nintendo.

Iwata: Yes. Even if we make great products, if the number of new customers doesn't increase, it won't reach people. That was clear to us, so doing the easy was not an option.  If we could do away with such goals, all we have to do is make new version of games that are already a hit. That's much easier than creating a new game.

Itoi: I'm sure they will sell though.

Iwata: I'm not saying that we won't create sequels to our hit games forever. However, we want to pioneer more new customers by searching new themes that succeed genres such as "brain training", "English training", or "cooking navigator".

Itoi: Is that a goal that everyone at Nintendo shares, or does only the leaders of the company have this in mind?

Iwata: I believe everyone shares it now. But realistically, I think we can say "we won't do the easy" because we are currently making profit.

Itoi: Ah.

Iwata: If we were having a hard time, maybe we will chose the easy, so that we can make profit for certain.

Itoi: It's easy to say "not to do the easy", but to asses it realistically is a tough job. But on the other hand, the market won't expand by doing the easy.

Iwata: Here's what happened when creating Wii. The director of "Brain Age" and "Brain Age 2" didn't create another sequel but was assigned to the team that was developing built-in software of Wii console. What he did there was creating the Photo, Weather and News Channels of Wii.

Itoi: Wow... If you had assigned him to make the next "Brain Age"...

Iwata: Wii wouldn't have been what it is now.

Itoi: Interesting.


10
Trying to Answer Questions

Itoi: Your model of thinking was nurtured in a technical field, but it's versatile at the same time. It's a very practical model.

Iwata: I've never studied management or enterprise organizations through books, but I think my method can be applied generally. The specifics, though, such as finding which data to pay attention to is probably something only I understand.

Itoi: (to the staffs) It's not that he was lazy or anything, but...he never used to read books.

Iwata: (laugh)

Itoi: I used to hand you my recommendations, but now you seem to recommend me a lot more than I do. (laugh)

Iwata: Now that I'm in my position, I can connect what's written in books and what happens around me. When I was specializing in programming, reading books on management or enterprise organization only helped me gain information. It was only information, so the knowledge didn't soak in. Gaining information doesn't give you a sense of accomplishment if it's not something you can try tomorrow. You don't feel the "reward".

Itoi: How about when you were a child? What books did you read, if any?

Iwata: I used to read the encyclopedia, from end to end.

Itoi: Did you memorize what you read?

Iwata: No, but finding the connection between things that I didn't understand until then was very interesting. That was my reward.

Itoi: Isn't that the same as you are now?

Iwata: Actually, yes. (laugh). It's interesting when things that I didn't understand connect, and I gain new knowledge.

Itoi: What I find amazing is the effort you put in answering questions. I don't think there was a time when you didn't answer my question. Every time I ask one, you answer it.

All: (laugh)

Itoi: Remember when I asked why lags are caused in international phone calls?

Iwata: Yes.

Itoi: Electronic waves are transmitted instantly, but when you make international calls, there's a lag. I remember asking this question out of the blue, but you gave me an answer right away.

Iwata: Let's see... phone calls used to have more lags in the old days. Although underwater cables are frequently used for international calls now, satellites were used before. Stationary satellites are located about 36000km away from the surface of the earth. So the voice is transmitted to 36000km above, and then 36000km down, which is over 70000km in total. When someone says "Hello", and the other answers "Hello", the signal makes two round trips, which is a total of a little over 140000km. Light and electronic waves are transmitted about 300000km per second, so the signal takes about 0.4 seconds to be transmitted 140000km. So when you say "Hello" and the other answers "Hello" back, there is approximately a 0.4 second lag.

Itoi: And he answered this instantly.

All: Wow. (laugh)

Itoi: Isn't it amazing? What caught me was not only the numerical figures that he answered, but that he included the "Hello" back in his calculation.

Iwata: (laughing) Yes, "Hello" to and fro is a set.

Itoi: "Hello" to and fro. That's good. I thought it was novel to think of communication as a round trip action. The reason why people are irritated is because of the lag that is caused in that round trip action. You include the response in your concept of communication. I find this very interesting. The numerical figures can probably be found on the Internet, but the fact that you gave me these facts immediately makes it amazing.

Iwata: I was able to give you an immediate answer because it was a subject I've thought about.

Itoi: Really?

Iwata: Yes. I was wondering why it was uncomfortable when calling overseas. Sometimes the lag is not as bad as other times.  When I draw a hypothesis, I test it against every possible pattern. When I find the hypothesis that can explain every pattern, that's when I can stop thinking, because that's the answer.

Itoi: That's a program oriented thought too.

Iwata: Probably. When there's a question that I can't answer, I can't stop myself pursuing it. If a hypothesis doesn't work against a certain pattern, it means that it's not correct. That means that there should be another reason, so I need to draw another hypothesis, and I keep on thinking.

Itoi: That's why when I ask something that you haven't thoroughly thought, there's a pause before you answer.

Iwata: (laugh)

Itoi: You stop and think.

Iwata: If it's a question that I have already pursued, all I need to do is give you my answer. But when it's something that I haven't come up with an answer yet, I need to check my hypothesis before I open my mouth. I like consistent logic, I'm from the computer field. When someone asks me a question I don't have an answer to, I verify if my answer is consistent with everything that I've done and known. Even if I feel confident that an answer is correct, I still need to test it from every angle.

Itoi: He's amazing, isn't he?

All: (laugh)


11
Reminiscence of the IT Manager

Itoi: Some of our new staffs may not know, but Mr.Iwata was one of the start-up members of Hobonichi.

Iwata: I was the IT manager of Hobonichi. (laugh)  Is it still valid?

Itoi: Of course, yes. I don't remember firing you. (laugh)

All: (laugh)

Iwata: For those who don't know, Hobo Nikkan Itoi Shinbun started on June 6th, 1998. About one month before that, I met Mr.Itoi. He took me to Nezumiana (where the office of Tokyo Itoi Shigesato Office was located at the time), and he said "I want to start up a web site here". I was knocked off of my feet. This was only one month before the start up!

All: (laugh)

Itoi: I didn't know what I was saying. (laugh) I don't have much knowledge now, but at that time, I had close to zero.

Iwata: I think it was because that you had such small knowledge that you were able to say you were going to start up a web site in a month. From then I arranged computers and Internet providers, put together a LAN, and said "I think you can start now."

Itoi: Pretty bad, huh? (laugh)

All: (laugh)

Iwata: No, I had fun. I've been the IT manager of Hobobnichi ever since.

Itoi: If you ask Mogi sitting there, Mr.Iwata's still the "guy that knows about computers", rather than the top of Nintendo.

Mogi: Yes.

All: (laugh)

Iwata: If I heard that there's not enough memory on the computers, I would open up the machines adding more RAM.

Itoi: I was like "Are you supposed to pull that out like that?" and he was like "Yes... (bang!)"

All: (laugh)

Iwata: Mr.Itoi thought that it would work out somehow, although he sensed that it would be a tough job. A leader should be that way. People try to figure out a way, because the project lies on the premise that "it should work out somehow". I do this sometimes. When we were developing Wii, I told my staff that I want the body to be the size of 3 DVD cases stacked together. I knew it was an extremely difficult demand, but I said it like I didn't know that.

Itoi: I understand this very well. It's not that you aren't aware of the difficulties.

Iwata: Of course not. However, it's also very important to strike a proper balance. Organizations fall apart if the people in charge only demand the impossible.

Itoi: Sometimes, you've got to ask for the impossible though.

Iwata: Yes, and when I said it, it was that kind of situation. The fact that you chose June 6th 1998 to establish Hobonichi seems divine to me. Of course, it was synchronized with the opening date of the World Cup, but still, there's no other date than that day. I can swear that Hobonichi wouldn't have been what it is now if you have started half a year earlier, or half a year later. That timing was great, you started late enough where you were able to avoid the predecessors' mistakes, and it was early enough so that it could grow to a scale it is now. You were able to seize the moment. The timing you started up Hobonichi makes it what it is today. I was just amazed at your decision, and I wanted to make it happen, to make it work. That's why I devoted in being the IT manager.

Itoi: I've heard him talk about this "timing" so many times, but I still don't understand the value of it. There are always people who say the opposite, that it's "too late" or "too early". You always have to listen to both.

Iwata: I know.

Itoi: I remember people saying "What, are you starting up now?" as if it was too late. I had lots of people telling me that they would help, but it was like out of pity. I talked with all of them, but gained nothing from them. I wonder what they are doing now.

Iwata: I'm sure tons of people said "You have such a career in the advertisement field. Why toss that and start something like this?"

Itoi: Tons.

Iwata: I remember you saying that "Since 'It's Popular Now' has become the most effective advertisement phrase, I can find any meaning in advertisement anymore". I understood why you started up Hobonichi. People who didn't see what you were thinking must have thought "Why the Internet, Itoi? " The same happened when Nintendo announced we're making a portable game machine with dual-screen and touch panel.

Itoi: Interesting.

Iwata: A lot of people thought Nintendo had gone nuts when they heard this. For us, our future was not in a continuous line of what we were doing then. The decision came from that point of view, but to people out there, what we said seemed offbeat.

Itoi: I didn't see things as clearly as you did, but I sensed that the world of Internet would grow, not that it would be a risky field. Although people tried to teach me many things, what I felt was that one day, normal people would just come to "know" about the Internet.

Iwata: It came true.

Itoi: Maybe I was calm at that time, come to think of it. The history of the Internet virtually starts around 1995, right? When people who didn't know anything about communication came up to me and started preaching about the Internet, it didn't persuade me at all. After all, all they knew was only a couple of years more than what I knew. Plus, at that time, I thought you as someone who knew everything. I thought, "And we do have Mr.Iwata..." (laugh)

Iwata: Ha ha ha.

Itoi: He can even add RAM to our computers! (laugh)

All: (laugh)

Itoi: Well, you don't have to check our computers anymore, but please drop by our office every now and then. You're still our IT manager.

Iwata: Sure. (laugh)

(This concludes our talk with Mr.Iwata. Thank you for reading.)